Hi Bill and Alexandria, Can you tell us about your personal journey into higher education, and what shaped your route into an academic career?

Alexandria: I used to lead a drug and alcohol team working across a group of prisons and young offenders’ institutions. I was working with young men, between the ages of 18 and 21, and women of all ages, supporting them with both addiction and trauma. I found that working with them one-on-one, rather than in group settings, was much more fruitful because of the relational approach that I was taking. There were then a lot more disclosures of trauma within those safe spaces.

At that point I realised the connection between adverse childhood experiences, trauma, and people then being involved in the justice system in the first place. And I felt like I was the only person that really understood that within the prisons at that time. A lot of the people that I worked with ended up in segregation or were being punished for struggling to adapt within those environments and spaces.

So that's why I left to study trauma. Until I studied criminology at university, I had a really poor educational track record. My school teachers used to say that I would be lucky to get a job in McDonald’s. I really struggled to sit in classes and actually ended up being a corridor kid. I was kicked out of school numerous times.

Which is why I think I'm so passionate about what I do, because a lot of my educational experiences align with the men that we work with in LEAF, especially the negative messaging that we received as young people. This idea that we would never achieve, that we would never amount to anything, and that I had nothing of interest to say, was something that was written in one of my school reports, and a lot of people share those experiences.

I never once felt that academia was my destiny, but when I got to university, and was able to tailor what I was doing and how I was doing it, in something I was really passionate about, I was able to achieve within this environment and space.

Bill: I was the first person in my family to go to university, but I was a third person to go to prison. At school, I was never academic and always getting excluded. I went into work as soon as I left school at 16. Various things then happened in my life and, a prison sentence later, I thought education has passed me by, and I always regretted it. I worked with a lot of students, and they suggested I should have a look at university.

I really wanted to try and understand my place in society better, and who I was, so I went into higher education as a mature student, then that led to a masters’ degree at Cambridge and then a PhD at the University of Hull.

I only applied to go to Cambridge because I wanted a letter from Cambridge saying, thank you for your application, but on this occasion, it's a no. But I was accepted and I thought, well, if I can do this, maybe I can get a PhD!

How have your life experiences shaped the way you approach your research and the inclusive practices you bring into your teaching and wider work?

Alexandria: A lot of my research is about trauma, and how that impacts people's day to day relationships, their engagement with their lives and their realities around them. And a lot of my life experiences are quite similar. So, I'm very careful about disclosures of trauma, and how to do that in a way which is safe. One of the things that I never do is ask anything directly about trauma. I pride myself on all my research not actually including that word at all, because I want people to have choice in what they share.

I use a lot of creative and artistic practices, especially when thinking about sensitive research, allowing people to visualise and have that choice in how they articulate their experiences. Navigating particular caring responsibilities in my life and then unfortunately grief, has really enforced that for me in a much stronger sense. I think that that has undoubtedly shaped the way that I work, and that my lived experiences of trauma, challenge, and adversity have created an empathetic, compassionate, and passionate researcher.

Bill: For me, for some of the Full Sutton lads to even engage with the work we do, is a triumph - when you think of what they've been through in their life, the educational trauma and some of the things that Alexandria and I have been through - just to see them sit in a classroom, even if they don't talk, means a lot.

We had one lad, he only spoke on the sixth lecture. He said something, and everyone was deathly silent because they knew what it must have taken him to speak. Everyone just stopped talking and let him talk – and then you could see him retreat back into himself. You could see that he was proud of himself.

For us, it’s about leaving things better than they were before we came in. It’s not about smash and grab. My favourite phrase is ‘active participant rather than passive recipient’ - which is about them getting out of it what they want, not what we want to give them. Having them as authors of their own destiny.

Alexandria: The way the prison service treats people who are sentenced, it removes people's autonomy. It even removes people's names – they’re referred to by their surname or prisoner number. We’re not necessarily expecting great academic results - what we're looking for is providing a safe space where men can engage in something that's meaningful, and that could inspire future opportunities. But just to try and alleviate some of those debasements and humiliations that are part of the prison regime, to actually feel human, to feel like a student, a learner, and connected to this institution is massive for the learners. They really feel that community belief and engagement.

Bill: The prisoners in HMP Full Sutton at the moment are all serving a minimum of 15 years, so the majority are going to come out at some point. So, we want them to come out with hope and with a passion to engage within society.

They can sniff it out if you're not genuine. And our skills and life experience align well to the research and work we do, and allow us to work in the prison and feel safe. The prison learners see us - not as one of them, but not as a punisher - and as people who are there to do something that can benefit them.

How have you been able to open up routes into higher education for people who may not have seen it as a possibility for themselves?

Bill: We’ve seen people who never, ever thought that university was an option, but through interacting with them in prisons, and giving them the confidence that we were given by others, they have gone to succeed in their education.

For example, we did some work in HMP New Hall, which is a woman's prison. One lady was released after a five-year sentence and has since completed the BA (Hons) Criminology with Psychology degree here. Another was released two and a half years ago and is now going into the third year of a degree in creative writing.

There was another lad who wanted to do a PhD whilst in prison and we managed to arrange a supervisory team for him. He’s the first person in a maximum-security prison to complete a PhD – it took him five years on a typewriter in his cell.

Alexandria: We’ve had people who come onto our courses who are in the later stages of their life, and have had a long, successful career outside of prison. Then they have taken their experiences of being in prison and supporting other people in prison and completely transformed their trajectory on the outside.

We have a former student who, when he was released, did a law degree and retrained to work in drug and alcohol support, because a lot of the work that he was doing on the wing was relational and supporting other people. Until he’d met us, he’d never engaged in education. He’s now coming with us to St James’s Palace for the Queen Elizabeth Prize event.

Every single interaction is so important. For us to be that consistent validator, that supporter, that believer, is really important. And the learners, they trust us and know that we are not judging them. We've had young men come on to the programmes who we really took a gamble on. We weren't quite sure how they were going to engage. One lad, for example, he went on to become a mentor on different programmes and really built his confidence. So, thinking about education, yes, it's about learning, but it's about those softer skills. Communication, confidence, teamwork, patience, all those things that we learn together as a group really are developed within that setting.

Bill: These are skills they were never taught in a traditional educational setting because it was just a default exclusion. But then they’re into the system.

There’s a significant number of people who cannot read and write in prisons – the average reading age in prisons is 11. A lot of our teaching practises are visual and creative practices so that we can meet learners at their level. So, we’ve got degree-educated people in our classrooms, and we have people who cannot read and write and they’re learning as they go. We’ve had lads who've signed up for our course, as their first step into education, and they realise they can do it. So, they sign up for more courses within the education group.

Alexandria: The LEAF programme really plugs a gap – because people have to be serving six years or less to get funding to complete a degree, for example with the Open University. So, unless they can self-fund, someone with 30 years left to serve may not get to the Open University for a long time. So, we are able to offer that connection with higher education at Full Sutton.

What do you think are the wider benefits for our university, for communities and for the research environment of creating genuine opportunities for people from all backgrounds to access higher education?

Bill: If someone can come out of prison, and enrol as a student, they could come out with a degree that could change the course of their life. Which in turn would benefit the lives of their family and children.

I have always said that we, as a university, have a responsibility to our society. And I firmly believe that, across all universities, knowledge should be given freely to society, to help the community. Vice Chancellor Professor Peter Slee and Pro Vice Chancellor Phil Cardew have been major champions of LEAF and the fact that education should be for all.

Alexandria: Professor Slee said something really powerful to me about our project, which was lovely to hear. He said that universities fundamentally should believe in the transformative power of education. And it was so nice to hear someone in that position say that, because we do. That was so validating and so supportive.

We’re working with lads who are 22, who have been given 40 years in prison before they can apply for parole, and we witness them coming to terms with that. Bill did a session on tattooing, that will stay with me forever. Everyone was comparing their tattoos. Was it a prison tattoo? Was it a pre-prison tattoo? And there was a young man in there, and he was no more than 19. He said, “I wasn't out long enough to get a tattoo.” And he was serving a very, very long sentence, and he's not sure if he will get out to get a tattoo.

It's not to say that people who commit those levels of serious offences shouldn't be in prison, but it's to recognise the human being within that environment and that space: what do we want prisons to do? Do we want prisons to be productive places for people? And how do we want people to come out?Prisons are containing places and they are usually far away from society. Our prison’s on an abandoned airfield. That's symbolic. And actually, having Leeds Beckett connect to a prison that is so distant from society, reinforces to the learners that we haven't given up, that the community, that society, still sees the human, and the potential in that person. 

What are some of the most profound impacts you’ve witnessed on our LBU students through their experience of LEAF?

Alexandria: We’re desperate to get back to bringing groups of LBU students into the prison to study the same module alongside the prison learners, and have that equity of learning again.  Some of our LBU alumni are coming with us to London for the Queen Elizabeth Prize, and they’re now working within prisons, probation workers, drug workers and police officers.

It’s a real challenge to connect with someone that you don't relate to. The lives of our Leeds Beckett students and Full Sutton students are completely different. Yet, the bonds that they created, as equal learners, were amazing to witness.

Our dream is to get back to this point, but until then, our students really enjoy knowing that our university is investing in the education of people who they're learning about. I do think that they're proud of this.

There’s such limited research about the impact of education on people with varied backgrounds, such as prisoners, in what matters, what works, and how that connects to their experiences of educational trauma. That's something that we're both really passionate about, and what we’re planning to focus on in the next couple of years.

Bill: One of our LBU alumni became a prison officer, and on her first job, in another prison, one of the prison learners that she studied with was on her wing. Another of our students, has now joined the police force on a detective graduate scheme, and she’s given us evidence that she’s challenging stereotypes in the police force now, because of what she learned in the prison.

We’ve also had lots of parents come to speak to us at graduation, saying, you've changed our kids. Before the programme they were very quiet and totally different people, and it completely changed their view on life.

Looking back, what has been one of your proudest moments, particularly in relation to your own non-traditional journey into academia?

Bill: For me, it has been about succeeding: getting through a degree, getting onto a master's, and getting onto a funded PhD - which are really hard to come by. Surviving that and being given the opportunity in a university. It's hard with the imposter syndrome that Alexandria and I both experience! But earning that trust, and being given the opportunity by the prison service and Full Sutton, to go in and teach their lads, is such an achievement.

Our work has been mentioned by Ofsted, and reported as best practice by the chief inspector of prisons. And to win the Queen Elizabeth Prize for Education is really exciting. It was nice to be to be asked to apply and, until we’d won it, I didn’t realise exactly how hard they are to win – only 19 out of 130 applications won in this round. And now we’re going to the Palace!

Alexandria: With the Queen’s Prize, I think what really swung it for us was what our students wrote about the experience – our LBU alumni and our prison-based learners who've been released. People really wanted to support it because they'd had such a positive experience.

When I left the prison service, and I had to tell the young men and women that I was working with that I was leaving, that was one of the hardest things that I did because I'd been such a consistent figure for them. I said, I'm leaving because I feel like I can't make any change here. I'm constantly fighting a losing battle, and I need to get out of this in order to do something meaningful.

And I really never envisaged quite what academia would allow me to do. It is a very privileged position and I'm really incredibly proud to sit in academia. But for me, anything that I do to create change to someone’s experience, I'll do it. I get quite emotional when I can see any research or any event, having real world impact. That felt sense of change of progress, is my dream coming into reality.